Where is God?

Wednesday, August 23, 2006

If you pray, can you misquote Jesus?

Wow. The response to this has been amazing - thank you all very much for your answers. Unfortunately I cannot answer everyone personally, so this is a global response.

It was very interesting to read all of your answers. I feel that I should clarify that I am not looking for God for myself. If I had a strong desire to find him, I know that I could very easily - it is easy to believe something that you want to believe. The reason I ask these questions is because I wish to understand why people believe. It is possible that through your responses I shall become a believer, for I am not closed to the idea. I just need reasons that convince me to believe.

The most prominent thing in your answers was the comment that I had a fundamental misunderstanding of the Gospel. I do not take this as a criticism, and I admit that I was wrong. I thought that much of the importance of Christianity was based around a Christian community. In this Christian community, everyone was to 'act like a Christian' - be helpful to others, not sin, love thy neighbor etc... I naturally assumed that access to heaven was granted a) through belief, and b) through goodness. Most of you pointed out that you do not 'earn' access to heaven. Indeed, it would be impossible for a mere human. Instead, we should pray for forgiveness for our sins, and God will forgive. I admit that this poses me a problem (and not only because heaven will include a child rapist who asked for forgiveness whilst an innocent, lovely child with parents from a different religion burns in hell). Imagine you tell a child that no matter how hard they work, they shall fail a class. You then tell them that you shall let them go into the class above anyway, but only if they truly regret being unable to pass on merit. Do you think the child will be motivated to work despite guaranteed failure?

Another thing I found very interesting in your comments about the Da Vinci Code, is that they were all so different (some said that it held no importance to those who were secure with their faith whilst others said it was an insult to all of Christianity), and yet all of you agreed on one thing - pure fiction. I agree 100% with this. However, if we take into account my comments above, it is perfectly conceivable that someone can believe in every word in the book and still be a Christian (the characters in the book are). Indeed, as long as they pray for their sins, they go to heaven. I therefore ask this - does God forgive sins even if we don't realise we are committing them, if we pray for forgiveness? Also, are being a Chritian and going to heaven essentially unrelated? To go to heaven, you must pray for forgiveness. Isn't there a lot more in being a Christian? Would you call the man who believes in the book but prays a real Christian?

Thirdly, about my comments on the bible changing. I anticipated that you would answer in the way you all did - 'what are your sources', 'it is not true', 'plenty of evidence to the contrary'. Let me reassure you that I am not one to believe something with no evidence. I did not believe the survey when I read it (although I did accept it was possible; see Bart Ehrman's 'Misquoting Jesus'). I planned to use this to illustrate a point. Instead of directly answering my question, you pointed out that the question itself was flawed. The question was based on my reading of a book which was based on some historical evidence. I believed (or pretended to) in what the book said. How is this different to the bible? How do you know it is the word of God? As you can see from my example, believing blindly in a book because someone told you it was true. Have you looked up all different historical evidence, analysing each in an objective way? Those who have done have come to different conclusions. What makes you believe unconditionally in the bible, but not in 'Misquoting Jesus'?

54 Comments:

  • Hi Curious George (sorry, couldn't help myself)

    (GF) If I had a strong desire to find him, I know that I could very easily - it is easy to believe something that you want to believe.

    The evidence is the very world we live in and the worlds we look out at at night. Even in a materially rich universe the chance of life having formed by itself ("self-organizing") is zero, and will always be zero. (By the way, I can't get my daughter to be "self-organizing", so I won't believe that chemicals organize themselves, that is, unless it was supernatural.) Once you understand that life couldn't have come from matter alone, then try to figure where the matter came from. Wittgenstein pointed out that if the easiest explanation is usually the correct one (Occam's Razor), then the easiest explanation for us is that we don't really exist.

    The work of the Father is evident to everyone (Romans 1:20). We call that natural revelation.

    (GF)Instead, we should pray for forgiveness for our sins, and God will forgive. I admit that this poses me a problem (and not only because heaven will include a child rapist who asked for forgiveness whilst an innocent, lovely child with parents from a different religion burns in hell).

    Forgiveness is essential. But the Bible shows that we are only forgiven if we forgive others, which is logical. Think of that as pulling yourself out of the "rat race". Our whole paradigm shifts on that action. God is drawing us back out of our lonely, narcissistic shell.

    As for the second part of your statement, God wants to bring us back into relationship with Him. Whether the children of other religions are damned is not readily knowable. We as Christians are called to spread the gospel (good news)because the offer from Jesus Christ is authentic - I call it the literal, outstretched hand of the real Creator. Again Christianity (OT and NT) is about personal relationship with the Father.

    You'll want to focus on what sin is. Sin is not "doing something wrong" per se, it's best defined as separation from God. Every generation has a different idea of what it means to do something wrong. In 1820, it was not a sin to talk to a black slave as if they were subhuman. But now we see that as a sin, although being promiscuous in 2006 (a sin in 1820)is not only not a sin, it's in style. The definition "separation from God" reveals the true inescapable nature of sin.

    Re: the Bible changing.
    I didn't comment on that before, but all translations come from a small group of oldest known texts. There could be 1000 translations, even some that focus on word-for-word (Amplified Bible) and others that are thought-for thought (New Living Translation), but the material is essentially the same. The most useful translations are the NIV Life Study Bible (with applications) and the Amplified.

    I thought Bart Ehrman's book was quite humorous. He takes the story of Jesus representing the adulterous woman having perhaps been inserted later and uses that to cast doubt (along with his other, petty grievances) on the whole Bible. He omits that the Bible has many sources and is bound together by the unchanging nature of God. (2 Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.") So can we really know for sure that the "cast the first stone" story is factual? Anyone could deny it. It could have been an eyewitness account from John or someone else, or it could have been like one of those urban legends that circulate on the e-mails. Why is it there? The lessons it teaches about our relationship with God and with people are priceless. Even though Ehrman does some good research, his results are minuscule and his presuppositions are evident throughout. He's one of those bible scholars who can't see the woods for the trees, or is it the trees for the weeds?

    You said it yourself. " If I had a strong desire to find him, I know that I could very easily." Remember that you can also observe that in the negative. Naturalists and atheists to name a few will do cartwheels to believe they arose from slime without anyone's help. After being pounded over the head by a "Freethinking" atheist for two weeks, I noticed that her razion d'etre was "I'm a Multicellular Microorganism in the TTLB Ecosystem". So I'm arguing till I'm blue in the face with a I'm a Multicellular Microorganism in the TTLB Ecosystem! Why did I bother!

    BTW, this was an excellent question. "Do you think the child will be motivated to work despite guaranteed failure?" When we ask ourselves "why am I here?" the first thing that comes to my mind is that we're here to witness to something wonderful that a benevolent Creator put together. Just as an artist invites us into his gallery, God invites us into His kingdom. Imagine how much more art this Guy has in store for us. These are the training grounds, the Art Appreciation class so to speak. Such a priviledge as existing and witnessing to God's magnificence is not failure, but success. Not being able to earn it is only logical. It all belongs to Him. The ultimate success is reconnecting with Him here (specifically through Christ), and everything else will fall into place.

    You ask if Christians look up historical evidence. I think the positive effect of the "Davinci Code" was that Christians realized that if they don't know their history, someone else is going to write it for them. Studying the history of Christianity is essential. There have been deviations, corruptions of power, the fourth century merging of Catholicism with paganism that continues to this day, and many wonderful revelations to name a few things Christians should be well-versed on. My observations on the Davinci Code (and the fact that it's just something God would throw at us) is here.

    Sorry for writing a book. Your questions get to the heart of the matter. One last point was that I had a more closed mind than you when I began studying the Bible 9 years ago. I was convinced that there were flaws throughout and I was planning to do a Thomas Jefferson and rip out the parts I thought were false (I even had the title of my first book picked out - "Reinventing God"). I was much more skeptical than you. The more I learned the more I realized how little I knew about the Book. It was my version that was flawed. Now I teach the Bible. What's the simplest explanation for that?

    Good luck and keep searching.

    By Blogger Jim Jordan, at 7:41 AM  

  • Again, many of your questions do not directly apply to me, since they assume that Christians believe things that I do not believe. The first, and most important distinction that I'd like to make here is between orthodoxy (literally "right belief") and orthopraxy ("right conduct," or, more literally, "right practice").

    In the introduction to this post, a look at the ancient Greek philosopher Xenophanes' critique of the religion of his day, I said this:

    I am convinced that one of causes of the Culture War is the tendency of Christians to choose orthodoxy (right belief) over orthopraxy (right conduct). Christianity has often been reduced to merely a set of statements about God with which one either agrees or disagrees. If one agrees, then they are acceptable, and if they disagree then they are a heretic. Never mind that there is no uniform set of statements which all Christian groups hold as a sort of defining set of statements. Even the ancient ecumenical creeds do not apply to all groups, and so are not truly ecumenical [note: this is particularly true in light of the fact that the beliefs of the earliest Christians - those closest to the time and presence of Jesus - are not included and are even contradicted by the first creeds, which came a couple hundred years later]. Also, nevermind that one's disagreement with a particular set of doctrinal statements may be motivated not by a desire to rebel against God or the church, but rather by a desire honor God and the church by telling the truth as best as one understands it.

    In his Christianity: Essence, History and Future (originally published in German as Christentum: Wesen and Geschichte in 1994, and translated into Englsh by John Bowden in 1995) Hans Kung (there should be an umlaut over the u, but I can't make Blogger do that!) notes that orthodoxy first becomes a primary concern in Christianity during the reign of Constantine, who, seeing Christianity as a potentially culturally unifying force called the ecumenical council of Nicea in 325. From this council of Nicea emerges the first unifying Christian creed, a document said to be binding on all Christians, uniting them under a common theology, orthodoxy.

    Nevermind that in the almost 300 years since the death of Jesus and the Easter experience there was as wide a variety of Christian beliefs as there were Christian communities. And nevermind that such disagreement, far from killing the church, led to an emphasis in the sorts of experiences and practices which united rather than divided a persecuted religious movement. It was, under Constantine, politically expedient to effectively wipe out dissenting groups so that a single unified Christian dogma would unite the church, and as such the Roman Empire, which would try to use a common religion to unite as disparate populice.

    It is dangerous to idealize the earliest Christian communities, as so many fundamentalists do. But, it is similarly dangerous to gloss over the theological disagreements within the earliest churches, and to posit an orthodoxy which comes nearly 300 years after the first churches form as binding on all of Christendom.

    I think that this false distinction between orthodoxy and orthopraxy, which often overlooks the warning from James that faith without works is dead (James 2:17, NRSV, "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." - though I hate "proof-texting, as it removes the passage being used from its context) has done a great deal of harm to Christianity. It making faith equivalent to belief, and in defining belief in a thin since, as intellectual agreement with theological propositions, a particular form of Christianity (to which you are responding, it seems) has placed a wall between faith and action, as though our actions were not a part of our faith.

    Also, the concept of salvation to which you are responding is a very limited concept, making salvation merely justification (a legal term which refers to eliminating penalty) rather than sanctification (that is, being made perfect). The Wesleyan/Methodist tradition that I come from makes no such limitation. Salvation comes from God's grace, experienced in three ways:

    1. Prevenient Grace - the grace of God active in your life, leading you to a point at which you can enter into some sort of relationship with God, and gain some sort of understanding of the grace which has been leading you to that relationship. This paves the way for the second way in which we experience grace, as

    2. Justifying Grace - this is the form of grace which you are responding to, which removes the penalty of sin. However, there is still work to be done. John Wesley argues, in A Plain Account of Christian Perfection, that because there is no possibility of sin in heaven (heaven would not be heaven if there were sin in it), in order to be a creature fit for heaven one needs not only be purged of the penalty of one's sin, but also of the very sin itself, the propensity towards sinfulness. As such, there is a third way in which we experience grace, as

    3. Sanctifying Grace - that is the grace of God active in our lives, making us new creatures no longer subject to the hold of sin. This is a process of being made "perfect" which takes our entire lives. I placed the word perfect in quotation marks because there has been a great deal of misunderstanding about it. Wesley does not argue that one must be made quantitatively perfect - that is perfect in all ways, unable to make any sort of mistake, and being unlimited - but rather qualitatively perfect. This means, in essence, to be perfectly yourself, the you who God made you to be before the mysterious fall.

    This presentation of salvation, while it starkly contrasts with the Lutheran/Calvinist concept of salvation, answers some of our shared concerns about the moral influence of the blank check of grace. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer argues in his The Cost of Discipleship (originally published in German in 1937 as Nachfolge, and translated by R.H. Fuller, with some revisions by Irmgard Booth), grace may be free (as in, freely given by God to all) but it is not cheap. It is, in fact, quite costly, because it demands your very life and everything in it. The cost of discipleship is to live as a disciple, disciplining your subject and subjecting your will to the will of God.

    Assuming, as most Christians do, that the will of God is the very form and definition of good, to have your will made subject to God's will, and as such to have your life and actions brought into conformity with that will, is to be very painfully made perfect, conforming in thought and action to the good that is God's will. While this is only made possible, according to Christian doctrine, by grace, it is by no means (in my own experience) effortless. It is certainly not accomplished merely by half-heartedly asking for forgiveness for certain wrong actions.

    This is because sin is not best described by a model of action and consequence, but rather by a disease model. Sin, best understood, is not something that you've done wrong. Rather, it is a spiritual cancer which, while it leads to all wrong actions, is a more fundamental concern than just the wrongness of the actions. Sin is a corruption of one's whole being, and such a corruption, like cancer, must be treated, and treated rather invasively. Grace is the treatment for the disease, but it isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card obtained in a spiritual transaction. Rather it is a process of having one's being fundamentally altered. This is, simply put, not so easy as either:

    a.) being a good person, as you used to think the Gospel implied, or

    b.) saying a quick prayer so that you can escape the consequences of your actions.

    And, most difficultly, it is not accomplished merely by an act of will, no matter how sincerely one wills it. But I'll have to save the rest for later.

    Incidentally, I'm not sure that this is the best way to go about trying to understand the many forms of Christianity, or to understand the very personal reasons why people of all faiths choose to take the leap into their relgion. However, short of devoting your entire life to the quest like I have (by no means a wise decision, at least in terms of "worldly wisdom" - most of my family thinks that I am wasting my abilities) I'm not sure how to go about it. Best wishes to you as you tackle this daunting topic; and please bare in mind that it is more of an existential than rational topic.

    By Blogger Sandalstraps, at 6:27 AM  

  • Reason to Believe:

    The best way to find out WHY people believe in Christianity, or even HOW it flourished, all you need to do is look at modern religions.

    After Chrisitanity sprouted, there was Islam, and from that the Bahai, Jehovah's Witnesses are an offshoot of Christianity as is Mormonism. In the last century alone there was Coadism in Vietnam, Scientology, Unitarian, Satanism, Damanhur in Italy, and more recently the Elian Gonzales Movement which is based in Santeria - a Carribean religion with African tribal roots that dates back to the slave trade. And yes, this religion is focused on that little boy who was washed ashore in Florida in 1999.

    The newest kid on the block is Rael with his Raelian movement - aliens are our gods!!

    The point is, we are so far removed from the origins of Christianity by time that it is difficult for anybody to say they have proof or evidence that anything happened the way the bible says it did.

    Fortunately for us, these modern religions are newer, and therefor we are able to debunk them. Even though they can and have been debunked over and over again, people still believe.

    Just look at Joseph Smith's miraculous revelation and his seer stones and his golden bricks only he could see - read the history, see the evidence, and yet.. people still believe.

    Even if Christianity 'could' be 100% debunked like these modern religions can, people would still believe.

    This has little to do with faith, and much to do with psychology. Perhaps you should do your exploring there.

    By Blogger Mattie, at 6:42 PM  

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