Response to Amanda
As requested by Jim Jordan, I shall reply specifically to one of the comments from my last post Why is God bad at marketing? Amanda has left several very interesting replies to my questions
on her blog Imago Dei. Her most recent response is here.
In response to Amanda's first question:
'What is your motivation? You've already stated that you're not asking these because you're seeking God'
To answer this I direct you to my response to the post at The Sincerity of Questions.
As a partial answer to Amanda's comments, I think a more interesting question is why am I exploring Religion and Christianity, rather than any other interesting and debatable philosophical subject? Well I'm sure you'll agree that religion has always played a huge role in the evolution of mankind, and continues to today. One must admit not always for the good (crusades, Middle East disputes, religious extremist terrorism etc...). In fact, from what I've seen, religion, although wonderful in small communities and on a personal level, causes huge problems when used in politics.
I can think of nothing better than religion to unite a population. The problem is in politics you often only need to unite a population to do something that people would not usually agree to, like go to war, suicide bombings and the like. Thinking about the huge role of religion in our world, and the problems it can cause, I starting wondering why people believe what they do, and why so many people disagree with those beliefs. I wondered: 'if religion were less important on an individual level, would the world be a better place?' I realise that the believers amongst you are itching to reply almost outraged at the prospect, saying "religion is the single most important thing to mankind". I realise this, and on a personal level agree with it. If it is true, then nothing is more important to the individual. But on a global/political level, would not the world be a better place if religion never came into it?
Those were the thoughts that lead me to start asking questions about Christianity, to try and find out what makes it so solid when it looks so fragile from an outside perspective. This is the one and only reason I think that Christianity is so fragile: the bible. So far no one has directly answered the question 'how do you know that the bible is the word of God? Every response has been based on the bible. Most of Amanda's first paragraph is a biblical quote, and the concluding sentence is "But then, we don't need them either because we have everything we need to know laid out for us in the Bible". It is irrational for any human being to believe blindly in a book that makes such huge claims (see my comments about the book 'Misquoting Jesus' in this post). I agree that historical evidence for the existence of Jesus is indisputable for any rational man. Indeed I could probably be convinced of His resurrection, and that would probably be enough evidence to convince me that He was the Son of God. These are the 'basic beliefs' I have mentioned before. However, I have trouble believing everything beyond that, as the evidence becomes very hazy. It is the 'messages from God' and religious doctrines that I have trouble swallowing. Indeed, I think that many religious agnostics would agree. And yet my just accepting the 'basic beliefs', I have been told, by every person who has commented on this blog, is not enough.
How do you know that every word in the bible is so correct as to be completely indisputable as the word of God? There must be something else, some other piece of evidence that pushed you over the tip, and made you a Christian, rather than a 'basic believer'. I'm on a quest to find what that thing is, and so far what I have suggested (that you feel God, that you hear Him, that you have seen a miracle) has been wrong according to those that have responded (often because I found flaws in them myself). So tell me, taking all I have said into account, how do you know? Where did you find God? Where is He?
on her blog Imago Dei. Her most recent response is here.
In response to Amanda's first question:
'What is your motivation? You've already stated that you're not asking these because you're seeking God'
To answer this I direct you to my response to the post at The Sincerity of Questions.
As a partial answer to Amanda's comments, I think a more interesting question is why am I exploring Religion and Christianity, rather than any other interesting and debatable philosophical subject? Well I'm sure you'll agree that religion has always played a huge role in the evolution of mankind, and continues to today. One must admit not always for the good (crusades, Middle East disputes, religious extremist terrorism etc...). In fact, from what I've seen, religion, although wonderful in small communities and on a personal level, causes huge problems when used in politics.
I can think of nothing better than religion to unite a population. The problem is in politics you often only need to unite a population to do something that people would not usually agree to, like go to war, suicide bombings and the like. Thinking about the huge role of religion in our world, and the problems it can cause, I starting wondering why people believe what they do, and why so many people disagree with those beliefs. I wondered: 'if religion were less important on an individual level, would the world be a better place?' I realise that the believers amongst you are itching to reply almost outraged at the prospect, saying "religion is the single most important thing to mankind". I realise this, and on a personal level agree with it. If it is true, then nothing is more important to the individual. But on a global/political level, would not the world be a better place if religion never came into it?
Those were the thoughts that lead me to start asking questions about Christianity, to try and find out what makes it so solid when it looks so fragile from an outside perspective. This is the one and only reason I think that Christianity is so fragile: the bible. So far no one has directly answered the question 'how do you know that the bible is the word of God? Every response has been based on the bible. Most of Amanda's first paragraph is a biblical quote, and the concluding sentence is "But then, we don't need them either because we have everything we need to know laid out for us in the Bible". It is irrational for any human being to believe blindly in a book that makes such huge claims (see my comments about the book 'Misquoting Jesus' in this post). I agree that historical evidence for the existence of Jesus is indisputable for any rational man. Indeed I could probably be convinced of His resurrection, and that would probably be enough evidence to convince me that He was the Son of God. These are the 'basic beliefs' I have mentioned before. However, I have trouble believing everything beyond that, as the evidence becomes very hazy. It is the 'messages from God' and religious doctrines that I have trouble swallowing. Indeed, I think that many religious agnostics would agree. And yet my just accepting the 'basic beliefs', I have been told, by every person who has commented on this blog, is not enough.
How do you know that every word in the bible is so correct as to be completely indisputable as the word of God? There must be something else, some other piece of evidence that pushed you over the tip, and made you a Christian, rather than a 'basic believer'. I'm on a quest to find what that thing is, and so far what I have suggested (that you feel God, that you hear Him, that you have seen a miracle) has been wrong according to those that have responded (often because I found flaws in them myself). So tell me, taking all I have said into account, how do you know? Where did you find God? Where is He?
posted by George at
9:41 AM
5 Comments:
George,
For me personally (and I think it should be this way for any rational person), it's an all or nothing kind of deal.
You've already said that you believe some of the things in the Bible. You are convinced Jesus was an actual historical person, and you said you could be convinced that He was resurrected and that would mean He is the Son of God. All of that is recorded in the Bible. And the Bible makes some pretty big claims about itself.
Take, for example, 2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Or 2 Peter 1:20-21:"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." Each of those verses speak of Scripture coming directly from God. Now if that's true, then it's all true. It has to be because God said it.
If those aren't true, then the Bible is a liar and nothing it said could be taken for truth.
It's all or nothing.
By
Unknown, at 1:45 PM
Hola George
Thanks for your narrowing down your uncertainties regarding faith.
Your first statement (religion has not always been for the good). Religion has indeed wrought a number of unfortunate events...when paired with political power. Note that the political power corrupted the religion and was able to turn it into a bad thing. If you look at the horrors of atheistic regimes (Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Mao's China etc.) you would have to agree that political power does not need religion to be lethal.
It could be argued that religion can play a mitigating role in the damage that political power can do. Today, we are pressuring moderate Muslims to correct their murderous and apostatic brethren. Moderate Muslims are our only hope within mankind to diffuse the present tension, and they are a reasonable hope.
On your other questions:
Scripture is best defined as infallible because it does not fail those who trust in it. In fact, my faith began to grow when I started to apply the principles of the Bible and saw how they freed me from lifelong anxieties. My post on the Bible's infallibility is here. The Word serves us like no other book could. Each day, I glean a new insight from it and, as Amanda pointed out, the fact that it bears God's perspective throughout and not ours is undeniable. With all due respect to Amanda, I wouldn't present the case "it's all or nothing" as it's very easy for a lazy person (like I was) to say "oh, OK, nothing, then." Instead I invite atheists and agnostics to study the Bible and try to prove conclusively where it is wrong - and then vet any remaining doubts with educated believers.
As for the experience that convinced me, I posted on that here. The clincher comes when we see that the relationship we seek with God is joined beyond a reasonable doubt.
I hope these observations and links are helpful. Take care.
By
Jim Jordan, at 7:25 PM
A human beings who dares to decay bromide hour of age has not discovered the value of life.
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Mark
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Anonymous, at 11:36 AM
We should be careful and discriminating in all the information we give. We should be especially painstaking in giving advice that we would not about of following ourselves. Most of all, we ought to avoid giving counsel which we don't mind when it damages those who transport us at our word.
gerber
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By
Anonymous, at 5:53 AM
To be a noble human being is to be enduring a philanthropic of openness to the far-out, an skill to group aleatory things beyond your own control, that can front you to be shattered in hugely exceptional circumstances on which you were not to blame. That says something very impressive about the get of the ethical life: that it is based on a trustworthiness in the uncertain and on a willingness to be exposed; it's based on being more like a plant than like a sparkler, something kind of fragile, but whose mere particular attractiveness is inseparable from that fragility.
By
Anonymous, at 6:53 AM
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