Where is God?

Thursday, September 14, 2006

Do we have free will?

This question has perplexed humans for thousands of years. Do we really get to choose our paths through life, or is there a destiny for everyone, a great plan that we cannot stray from?

There are hundreds of ways to look at this question, but let us stick to the God thing. Assume the following to be true:

1. God is perfect and omnipotent. He is unlimited in all senses - infinite power, knowledge, presence etc...
2. Humans have free will in the sense that we can choose whether or not to believe in God, in what way we believe in Him, and to what extent.

Looking at these two statements, I come to the following. If we do have free will, it is conceivable that we can consciously choose to go aginst the will of God. Granted this would doubtless result in some unpleasantries (like a painful death and eternal burning in hell, where I can only imagine they play 'Welcome to My Life' by Simple Plan in loop), but it is nonetheless theoretically possible that God reveal Himself to me, say 'George, it is my will that you eat this tomato, so obey', and I say 'no, I will not'.

Hence if humans have free will, God's power is limited (whilst he can create a universe, he could not make me eat a tomato). God cannot be limited by definition. Now consider:

1. God is perfect and omnipotent. He is unlimited in all senses - infinite power, knowledge, presence etc...
2. Humans do not have free will - God controls everything that we do; it is His will

If this is the case, everything from Eve eating the forbidden fruit, to the Black Plague, to both World Wars, to living in a world where we are slowly destroying the Earth and billions of people are going to hell (no matter which religion is right, billions will be wrong), is God's will. Not only that, but what would be the point of believing at all, since God would choose who believes in Him and the rest don't have a hope...

Either one of the 2 situations above is true, or they are both flase. I think that they are both false, which leads us to the following: God, if indeed He exists at all, is limited in power. Indeed it follows that he is limited in all things, and hence the definition of God as it is understood by most is flawed. So:

1. What is the definition of 'God'?
2. Do we have free will?
3. Can God have limited power?

Discuss...

posted by George at 3:48 AM

12 Comments:

  • George, I think your logic is flawed! It doesn't have to be either A or B. There is at least one other option, maybe more.

    1. God is perfect and omnipotent. He is unlimited in all senses - infinite power, knowledge, presence etc...
    2. Humans have free will in the sense that we can choose whether or not to believe in God, in what way we believe in Him, and to what extent.

    Yes!

    Hence if humans have free will, God's power is limited (whilst he can create a universe, he could not make me eat a tomato).

    Perhaps. But have you ever considered that God limited himself?

    Think about this:

    I don't know if you have kids or not. If you do, which would you prefer? Do you want your children to love you because you made them? Or do you want your children to love you because they want to?

    We aren't God's puppets.

    Yes, God knows what we will choose. But knowing isn't the same thing as causing. I know that the traffic light at the intersection is going to change from red to green. That doesn't mean I made it happen.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:05 PM  

  • We are the clay and He (God) is the potter.

    A potter takes a piece of clay and makes either a toilet bowl or a beautiful vase or ornament. It is the potter's choice and no one else's.

    Anything on the part of the clay questioning the potter's actions is rebellion.

    QED,

    n2sbp

    By Blogger yes2truth aka Charles Crosby, at 5:26 AM  

  • What about choice C ? The principle of selfishness and its impact on the human mind and consequent perception and conception of a God of infinite love.

    God is perfect and omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

    God has given all created beings the power of choice.

    What of Lucifer whose hatred of human beings is manifest in turning the minds of human beings against their Creator ?

    Human will is weak and selfishly inclined but the power of choice may still be exercised. If God is love and human beings are selfish by nature, a clear understanding of God's character is not possible without temporarily suspending a judgmental attitude.

    The majority of atheists are so deficient in their understanding of the Bible that they actually believe that it teaches that God will burn people in hell for eternity if they don't worship Him. This shows great ignorance of the Scriptures.

    Too bad. Misunderstanding and misapplying different verses they come to wrong conclusions about God.

    Christian

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:49 PM  

  • THE SUPREME POWER,CREATER OF UNIVERSE,BLAH...BLAH...IS GOD.

    I HAVE SEEN LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NO WRONG AND ARE FIRM BELIEVER OF GOD ,YET THEY ARE WORST SUFFRERS IN THEIR WHOLE LIFE.

    BE SPIRITUAL NOT RITUALISTIC,YOUR BOTH QUESTIONS DEPENDS UPON THE INDIVIDUAL UPBRINGING.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:45 AM  

  • anuj,

    It is true that our nation is more blessed than others. Incredibly blessed. But, as said in the bible, (I could look it up if you wished) that the rich have the hardest way to know God. Yes, poor people struggle with money issues more than the rich, but they have the advantage. And anyway, when God gives us these blessings, he doesn't expect us to keep them to ourselves, he expects us to share them with the less fortunate majority of the population.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:46 PM  

  • God is love.
    love never forces istself on anyone. otherwise it would not be love. God made man for fellowship and man turned from God which was mans choice by way of free will but God has been trying to win back mens heart. not by force but by works. this is why Jesus was born to die. to show that God would pay the ultimate price to regain men through love and not by force. Genesis through Revelations tells this story. look around you and you can see it in daily life if you --want-- to. God is all powerful but chooses to set juristiction on his power. God made hell for the devil and his angels for trying to rise above him and now man is following the devils foot steps in going their own way and choosing to leave God out who died for them and thus taking on the same punishment as satan, Hell. God has healed me 5 times thru prayer and faith in his word. he has also given me boldness to preach to all who will LISTEN. Thanks for posting these questions.

    By Blogger Unknown, at 9:52 AM  

  • i believe we choose ourself and god is just a visitor ! he showed and told us the right and wrong ways so we choose !and its important to know that without any pain you achive nothing so shoosing the right chice is that pain and attemt
    thanks

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:08 PM  

  • Well, coming back to the original question--
    You are trying to limit God's power, by showing that we have no free will. That logic is fatally flawed.
    You stated:
    "God reveal Himself to me, say 'George, it is my will that you eat this tomato, so obey', and I say 'no, I will not'."

    Building on that: God CAN make you obey him. But he CHOOSES not to force you becuase of LOVE and respect. So, bottom line:

    His power is in no way limited by us possesing free will.

    By Blogger Roshan (A.Mandal), at 9:15 AM  

  • One thing that i have read from all of the previous comments is that the choice that we have to make is not a very good one.

    Now the the real choice that you have is to follow a mythical person that you can never disagree with OR THE ONLY OTHER CHOICE is an existence that is so terrible and well just about 10 times worse than anything that we can imagine.

    So my question to Amanda is what choice is there. An example I have come to use is would you rather make love the night of your wedding night with the person that you love with every fiber of your being OR (now heres the second choice) be raped and tortured forever. What would you pick

    Payton

    By Blogger MrPbody320, at 9:58 PM  

  • I don't know about others, but if God exists and He really has an infinite power, I think He would use it to control us. People who believe in His power and pray have to admit that the only reason for this is that they are afraid of the power of the God, not because they love Him. However, that's their choice.
    And agree with me, one has to be nuts to imagine the existence of someone who can destroy him.
    So, why do people believe that He exists? Probably, because majority of them wants to believe they are not alone.
    And don't tell me God is not imaginary. Have you seen Him? Has anyone seen him? Is God male, female, or unisex?

    By Blogger gvanci, at 4:53 PM  

  • Amanda- I'd like to think us humans are a little more complex than a traffic light. At least, some of us are.... So while YOU don't cause the traffic light to turn, a human built it to do so, and thats why you know it will happen. It is merely a machine.

    By Blogger Trainwreck, at 9:12 PM  

  • For those of you that feel that the cross is a christian symbol only! please look up Laminin in your medical books or maybe on wikipedia This is what holds us all togeather. Did our creator put it there to remind us of his sacrifice which was to come? What does laminin look like?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:40 AM  

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